All content in the ZeccoShare community is generated by its members and does not contain advice or recommendations on behalf of Zecco Holdings or Zecco Trading. More>>
Content Name: CommunityDisclaimerShortLeftNav
Preview Revision #:
Active Revision #:
Edit Content
Zecco.com » Advocate Pit » Horse Trading » ARCHIVED: Horse Trading 101 - The O...
Last post 10-16-2008, 2:58 AM by Horse Trader. 519 replies.
Page 8 of 35 (520 items)   « First ... < Previous 6 7 8 9 10 Next > ... Last »
Previous   Next
Content Name: ForumThreadInternal
Preview Revision #:
Active Revision #:
Edit Content
  •  08-29-2008, 12:15 AM 36854 in reply to 36836

    Re: Horse Trading 101

    Reply Quote

    RHD is still moving up since Monday

    NVAX nice trader last few days

    CELL rising tide

    GSIC Patience

    TSO looks good for Friday

  •  08-29-2008, 12:15 AM 36855 in reply to 36840

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote

    JeremyAlan:
    I was pretty good at cutting my losses short Horse.  I was actually day trading not too long ago and doing fairly well jumping in and out like a bandit.  The problem is that when you listen to other people about buy and hold and not cut your losses short.  My opinion is the market will take even good stocks down based on BAD INFORMATION, but you sort of have to realize that most investors are getting that information and want to sell.  Now, you just have to realize that they are and get out?  So what I am saying is that the stock doesn't trade with the health of the company.  Do you think this is a valid consideration?

     

    Jeremy:  I much appreciate the very good questions you are asking.  It adds significant value to this forum.  I go on the belief that I am ignorant!  It's a pretty safe belief for me, just ask my wife!  If I'm ignorant, then I accept that I don't have perfect information.  Therefore, there always could be news or events out there that I don't know about or that aren't yet public.  All the while, the stock price is moving against me.  This is Livermore's point when he says "Don't worry about the WHY, focus on the WHAT!"  WHAT is that the stock price is moving against me.  WHY, well, Mr. Market decided it.  Other than that, I may never know!  I would much rather take a very quick exit, sit on the sidelines, then decide later, under better conditions if I'm willing to re-enter.  Yes, the stock and health of the company are two independent entities, loosely tied together, but separate.  A good companies stock can go down, might be nothing, might be something we don't know.  We won't necessarily know!  Yes, the LTBH people will say just ride it out... but look at AMD!  Back in 2006-2007, on the surface, they seemed OK, taking market share from Intel.  Business was firing on all cylinders.  Who in the world, in 2006, would think AMD would be selling for $4 today???  Ride it out?  I'd rather ride the #1 bull in a rodeo!  Wouldn't it be much less emotional if you took a small hit, sat on the sidelines being unemotional about it, and watched for a new, lower, safer entry point?  I can tell you, if I had bought AMD at $30 and was still holding it today for $4, I would be very emotional about it!

     

    Let me clarify something here so I'm not confusing people.  When I talk about taking quick exits, I'm not talking about jumping in and out.  I'm talking about making a first buy and making sure the stock is acting right before I commit any more capital!  If it doesn't and turns against me, immediately take your exit.  If it's working in my favour, then I let it work.  Once it's working in my favour and profitable, then it's much less risk to add to the position on additional strength.  You're already at a profit!  The hardest buy is the first one.  We want to make sure it's right.  I would much rather NOT be stopped out on my first buy.  I would rather stay in the trade and let it work, then to jump in and out of it.

     

    Sorry for the scrambled nature of that reply.  I hope I answered the question. 

  •  08-29-2008, 12:20 AM 36858 in reply to 36853

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote

    JeremyAlan:
    I went short on PLAYBOY at 5.65 not too long ago.  I cut my losses short (excuse the pun).  I turned out to be initially right and covered too soon.

     

    That does happen!  But, if the stock moves against us, we really don't "know" if it will turn the other direction.  If I get stopped out on my first buy, I don't necessarily discard the idea, if it's still good.  I just wait.  See my ENER trade.  I was stopped out, I didn't know where it was going next.  I soon saw it immediately turned tail and headed back up.  Had I turned my back completely on it, I would have missed a quick 10% gain.  Instead, I was right there to jump back into it, not afraid of it because I took a big loss!  Now, in a different, more favourable market, I would have set my stop much looser, with more risk tolerance.  But, this market is about extremely short term timeframes and grabbing gains before they rapidly disappear!

     

    Never look back at missed or bad trades... always look forward at your next trade! 

  •  08-29-2008, 12:22 AM 36861 in reply to 36855

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote

    Oops duplicate post.

  •  08-29-2008, 12:32 AM 36863 in reply to 36844

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote

    JeremyAlen you should listen to this video it talks about what you are asking  every day with new stocks

    Good Luck

  •  08-29-2008, 12:51 AM 36866 in reply to 36844

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote

    JeremyAlan:
    Horse,

    What are some of the psychological traits that you think a trader should have?  We know that the trader should be able to take a loss but minimize a loss.  You have given that down 10% in the whole portfolio, one should cash their chips in.  What are some of the barometers when trading individual stocks?  How do you know when you are wrong in the sense of buying into the security? 

     

    First, on the 10% rule.  What Livermore is talking about there is each trade, not the entire port.  So, let me address that first.  I don't risk 10% on each trade, I risk 5% on each trade.  That doesn't mean, though, that I put my initial stop at 5%.  It means, I use staged buys with calculated stops to make sure I don't go over 5% of the entire trade.  So, let's assume I want to make a trade using 3 buys of $1000... total $3000.  5% risk on this trade is $150.  At no point then do I want to risk more than $150.  I make my first buy based on support.  In reality, I can place my stop 15% below my first buy and still risk only 5% of my trade.  Once I commit my second buy, then my stop has to be no more than 7.5% from my average cost.  Finally, if I get to commit my 3rd buy, then I have to use a max 5% stop.  If I need a larger initial stop, then I might drop down to 1/4 buys.  My thought on it is this.  If I limit my total loss to 5%, but I can get minimum of 10% gains, then I can tolerate 2 losses for every gain and I break even.  Any thing better than this, I'm gaining.  Any gains greater than 10% increase my gains.

     

    Now, back on the 10% port rule.  I don't think a trader should completely throw in the towel.  No, not at all.  If someone gets down on their port 10%, even in this market, then I think it's pretty obvious their current strategy is not working.  It could be the market, it could be the strategy.  Before they take their port down even further, making it that much more difficult to come back, I think they should cash out temporarily, to cool the streams, let things settle, and evaluate the situation.  If it's the market, take a breather.  If it's strategy, then look at the problems and fix them.  The last thing I would want someone to do is keep doing the same thing that got them down 10% in the first place.  HOPING the port comes back will just result in that 10% going to 15% down, then 20%.  Soon, they will have to throw the towel in.  So, it's a matter of surving to make the next trade.  After their rest period, then I advise them to take it easy.  Make small trades, don't throw a lot in until they see changes, positive momentum.  Once they get back in gear, if they are sure everything is working, they will have a chance to get back in the game.  Being down 10% is tough psychologically, we start making additional mistakes.  Again, it's a matter of survival.

     

    Psychological traits.  I don't necessarily think a person's psychology matters per se.  We are all individuals and think/act differently.  I think people who are more willing to say "I'm wrong" have a better chance because they don't tie themselves to being "right".  I think people who are more emotionally balanced have a better chance.  They don't get excited about gains nor down about losses.  They just accept the result and move on.  But, given these "advantages", I don't think they are necessary.  What is necessary is objective, unemotional trading, full stop.  To achieve this, it's not necessary to have a "perfect" psychology, but to have an awareness of our own psychology.  If a trader is a very emotionally charged person AND KNOWS IT, they can implement rules and measures to tame their emotions... don't watch prices for one; make all decisions outside market hours, stuff like that.  In essence, it's less about the psychological makeup, more about self-awareness and what it takes for ourself to achieve an objective unemotional state of trading.

     

    How do I know I'm wrong?  The price has told me.  I make these barometers before I make my first buy.  I'm patient with my buys and make sure I have something to judge them buy.  If a stock price is resting on top of a 50DMA, then a violation of the 50DMA will tell me I'm wrong.  So, to minimize risk, I'll buy as close to that support as I can get.  Consolidation ranges, a breakdown in the consolidation range.  Now, I am well aware of what the pros do with flushes.  They'll trip stops or buys by pushing the price down or up out of range.  This is a hazard of doing business.  But, if this happens to me, I'm aware of it and act.  A flush of stops with the price return back into consolidation means it should move higher.  I'll buy it back.  A failed breakout means the price should move lower, sometimes significantly lower... it's a great short sell opportunity.  How do I know if I'm wrong in these cases?  Easy, the stock moves in the wrong direction.  Just because I get flushed once doesn't mean I won't accept being stopped out again... just a business expense.  But, it's much easier to jump back into a trade after a 2% stoppage versus a 20% loss!

     

    I'll also offer at least one answer on your question to chrib. 

    1.  If I get a 10% gain in less than 5 days, I take partial profits off the table.  I don't care if it reverses the next day or continues up. 

    2.  If a stock makes a big jump in one day, called a "dominate candle", it should not retrace more than half of that candle if it's going to continue moving up.  Ideally, it retraces less than this.  The "perfect" retracement is a 3 day withdraw that stays above the midpoint.  So, if you get in on a big day, take partial profits, then place a stop on the rest just below the midpoint of the dominate candle. 

    3. If you watch prices intraday, you can often see the price double, tripple top at a certain price.  If it doesn't break through this short term resistance, it's withdrawing.  We may not necessarily know, but it's retreating. 

    4.  There's a rule I follow called the "Three Day Rule".  It means most stock moves occur over a 3 day period.  Day 1, the smart money is buying, starting the move.  Day 2, the more astute traders are buying because they observed the first days move.  Day 3, the "dumb" money is buying because the move is now plainly obvious.  Day 3 often ends in a retreat.  Never buy on Day 3!  So, if you see two UP days in a stock, wait it out, don't chase it.  If you're in on Day 1 or 2, good job start looking to sell to the "dumb" money!

  •  08-29-2008, 1:57 AM 36872 in reply to 36844

    Re: Livermore's Money Management Rule #2

    Reply Quote
    JeremyAlan:
    Horse,

    Chrib,

    You talk about "I don't like how this pattern is forming" when you trade a stock.  What are some signs that tell you that even though the stock is going up in the day is may reverse?  In other words,  what do you do?


    I look at how fast price is moving, and how far it moves. If it's moving up at a 45 degree angle or less, then I don't like it. That's the formation a B wave takes. If you see something you like at a great price, you don't wait to buy it. You jump on it, and there should be stampede. Not this gentle sloping up - it calls out for punishment. And nothing is more punishing than a C wave.
  •  08-29-2008, 2:20 AM 36875 in reply to 36872

    Elliott Wave Theory

    Reply Quote

    For those who needs a very good, clear, and concise discussion of Elliott Wave Theory, wikipedia, of all places, has one of the best discussions I've seen... even has a nice little picture showing the waves!

     

    Elliott Wave Theory

  •  08-29-2008, 8:43 PM 36939 in reply to 36875

    Doh!

    Reply Quote

    After having a "Doh!" experience today, I thought this line of discussion would be good to collect some "common pitfalls" that we all inevitably fall into, those frustrating little experiences that chip away at us.  So, to kick off this discussion:

     

    What was my "Doh!" experience today, you ask?  On my RIMM trade -- My average cost is just below $120.  I had a stop set at $124.95, using the $125 consolidation base as support.  Knowing that I don't watch the market (I'm in bed asleep), I am forced to rely on preset actions.  I awoke this morning expecting to be out of RIMM, locking in a minor 5% profit... no where near a homerun, but four singles scores equally!  Well... I opened my trading account to find RIMM still in my portfolio!  Huh?  I had made 3 buys on RIMM during my trade and apparently, I forgot to adjust my stop order to account for my most recent buy!  I was stopped out of 2/3 of my position, but still hold 1/3... Doh!

  •  08-29-2008, 11:04 PM 36957 in reply to 36939

    Re: Doh!

    Reply Quote
    Horse Trader:

    After having a "Doh!" experience today, I thought this line of discussion would be good to collect some "common pitfalls" that we all inevitably fall into, those frustrating little experiences that chip away at us.  So, to kick off this discussion:

     

    What was my "Doh!" experience today, you ask?  On my RIMM trade -- My average cost is just below $120.  I had a stop set at $124.95, using the $125 consolidation base as support.  Knowing that I don't watch the market (I'm in bed asleep), I am forced to rely on preset actions.  I awoke this morning expecting to be out of RIMM, locking in a minor 5% profit... no where near a homerun, but four singles scores equally!  Well... I opened my trading account to find RIMM still in my portfolio!  Huh?  I had made 3 buys on RIMM during my trade and apparently, I forgot to adjust my stop order to account for my most recent buy!  I was stopped out of 2/3 of my position, but still hold 1/3... Doh!

    If you think thats a DOH look at what this newbster does.... I put in a stop limit order instead of a stop order like you recommended and I gapped right through the support and still stuck with the stock. I had a stop @ 127.25 and a limit of 127 and got dinged on this trade.

    Good thing I am trading with low volume only have less than 10 shares on this trade. Boy there sure is no nearby support now.... What am I to do? I almost feel to just to hold on a go for a pure speculative trade now with the earnings report on september 25 to get a bounce back. The blackberry bold has been released in europe and Sept 15 in the us. Looks like i just turned this one into a gamble not a trade see you at the casino! (Denfinately now the 10% rule on Stop ORDER ONLY is in place.) Got a bit of margin left on it to the bottom of 10% limit on this trade.

    1.) Lesson learned here use STOP Orders! It enforeces dicipline and gets you out gauranteed.

    2.) Always start with small postions and perserve capital Even though I lost 4.7% today on this trade instead of my stop @ 2% right at support of 20 and 50 MA and nearby support this cost of tution is small and I can still recover. Highly recommend using Horse Trading plan on going in on 3rds so if you perform a dumb newb error you have margin to the hard 10% limit to go. I also like the idea of when adding shares to the trade you have to move up the stop to so you can reduce your risk and leverage the trend. Always cap losses @ 10% max but I agree 5-6% in this bear market seems better for protection. Only downside is you might trade more often or just wait it out till next month for more free trades.

    Hope my experience now adds to other new fokes out there. Play small so you do not get burrned.! I just go an annoying rash today.

  •  08-29-2008, 11:18 PM 36958 in reply to 36957

    Re: Doh!

    Reply Quote
    Or you could be poor like me and if you put a stop on anything that's 500% of your equity in trading fees. (:

    Stops.
    So.
    Important.
    In.
    This.
    Crazy.
    Market.



    Like, seriously.
    Even long term buy hold fans can't say that stops aren't good in this environment.